“We had to choose between the certainty of disaster and the doubt of salvation. You can’t be independent when you have to borrow €20m a day.”

40 comments on ““We had to choose between the certainty of disaster and the doubt of salvation. You can’t be independent when you have to borrow €20m a day.”
  1. Dementia 5 says:

    Seems to me that disaster is what the Greek economy is already facing now. But then,… I’m just a crazy canuck….

  2. flicks says:

    Let me tell ya something Max the mother *uckers are going down. Their not ready just yet but its going to happen. And sometime this year we will all sit back and watch the headless chickens running around looking for the CDS traps, if not that, then the legal onslaught over what a default is will kick-in .

  3. bit chin says:

    From Reuters (http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/02/20/us-greece-idUSTRE8120HI20120220 )

    “Diplomats and economists say a deal may only delay a deeper default by a few months.”

    Pass the begging bowl – Portugal, Spain, Ireland and Italy are next, bitchez!

  4. flicks says:

    And EVERYONE just remember what Rickards said :-

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dxR8NXTds9U

    The more the ‘bailout’ the more the CDS fuck over .

  5. Wolferl says:

    @ Max

    This is the quote you ought to use as a headline:

    “We’re in an awful shape. We don’t produce anything, not even the meat we eat.”

    Spot on, even agriculture in Greece is a mess. And all this after 40 years and billions and billions of payments in structural aid out of the structure funds of the EU and money from the EU common agriculture market.

  6. trooper dave says:

    Greece Throws in the Towel, Bows to German Jackboot

    The complicit and/or spineless politicians throw in the towel. The national identity is so branded on to people whenever it is used in this way everyone thinks the statement applies to all the PEOPLE of that country. It doesn’t!
    Power, peace and respect to all the PEOPLE, around the world, having their living standards and quality of life whittled away and stolen from them by conspiring thieves in the form of politicians, financiers, controlled MSM and bankers. It may be less stressful for the blissfully ignorant as these events unfold on their lives but everybody ends up the same; a serf slave to the criminal psychopaths.

  7. TJ says:

    @Worlferl

    Don’t be so full of yourself.

    The provinces are doing just fine.

  8. Wolferl says:

    @ trooper dave

    People have to take responsibility for the actions of their country. Denying this responsibility of the individual person is the root of all evil.

  9. Wolferl says:

    @ TJ

    The provinces are doing just fine? Really? So the Greeks in the provinces should pay the Greek debt, no need for European taxpayer here.

    I´m talking about professional agriculture, not growing some veggies for the family.

  10. TJ says:

    @Wolferl

    Industrial agriculture is regulated by the EU and therefore discombobulated. Maybe they’ll get rid of those migrants the EU demands gain Greek citizenship. Germany was happy to have them imposed on Greece so far to kill local wages.

    Taxes are for slaves. If you want Greece, you’ll have to go take it the right way. But you won’t keep it for long. Like last time around ;-)

  11. Palantír says:

    When Greece gets write-downs on they’re debt, What debt is it that then?
    “€100bn in write-downs on privately held Greek government bonds”
    Are EU circulating Greece debt in an attempt to get rid of private (internal?) debt for then to substitute that with ECB debt, in effect making Greece a total debt slave to a foreign nation (EU)?
    What amount of Greek debt is being held by the Greeks themselves and what is held by foreign nations? I assume it is easier to get rid of internal debt than to get rid of foreign debts

  12. Wolferl says:

    @ TJ

    I don´t want Greece, it´s worthless, we checked that. Guess the Turks want it, they´ll probably buy up most of the place over the next few years.

    @ Palentir

    Spot on. As a country you may be able to default on privat held bonds but not on loan by another state or public entity. And since Greece will not get much money from private lenders over the next 10 years, it´s under total EU control. They may look for another slave master to rule them, maybe the Russians want them or the Turks, but i doubt these guys want to pay.

  13. TJ says:

    @Wolferl

    You’re a funny guy. Greece will do much better than that.

    When the Russians cut off all of Germany’s fuel, you’ll be the first to wish you were in that horrible sunny Greece ;-)

  14. Al Kyder says:

    @ Wolferl

    How much Gold does Greece have? How long can they string this “Long con” out for? Barbie™ explains…

    http://ia700804.us.archive.org/4/items/medusabarbie/barbie.jpg

    I made this specially for you, do you like it ??

  15. Vonda Bra says:

    @ trooper dave | February 20, 2012 at 10:21 pm |
    Spot on!

    @ Wolferl | February 20, 2012 at 11:04 pm | @ trooper dave

    —-People have to take responsibility for the actions of their country. Denying this responsibility of the individual person is the root of all evil.—-

    unfortunately thats spot on too !!!!

    @ Wolferl | February 21, 2012 at 12:19 am | @ TJ
    —-I don´t want Greece, it´s worthless, we checked that. Guess the Turks want it, they´ll probably buy up most of the place over the next few years.—-

    whats wrong with you?, to always, at all costs, have to have that disgusting arrogance hang out ??? Thank god, with your “bloodthurstyness”, you´re a minority in your country and neighbourhood !
    “I don´t want Greece” … and then “WE checked that” ….
    sometimes you indeed talk like an insane oligarch !!!!!!!!!! :-(
    STFU! ….. arrrgh!

  16. Wolferl says:

    @ Al Kyder

    I guess the Greeks have no gold. Those 100 tons they claim to have are in vaults in Switzerland and given as colateral serveral times. And gold that is still in the ground is worth nothing. And this is true for other commodities too.

    @ Vonda Bra

    I don´t want Greece in the EU anymore, were the rule of law is generally accepted, so i´m bloodthursty? Please elaborate. I think it´s better to let the Greeks live by their own. They cheated their way into the Euro, this will cost the people in Europe billions in savings and inflation. And over the last 3 years now they break every agreement that was made. The majority of Europeans knows this and wants to get rid of those cheating Greeks. But it seems that a few people like you are still stupid enough to fall prey to those Greek lies after all what happened.

  17. Flopot says:

    @Wolferl

    “People have to take responsibility for the actions of their country. Denying this responsibility of the individual person is the root of all evil.”

    And how are they supposed to show that responsibility?

  18. Flopot says:

    @Wolferl

    Your generalisations are disturbing – falling back on stereotypes to dismiss the entire situation in Greek. Moreover, you are clearly ignoring the fact that Greece is being subjected to the classic Shock Doctrine technique.

    This has less to do with a “parental” EU finally losing its patient with the awkward child (an MSM narrative, shame on you Wolferl) and more to do with the banksters moving in for the kill.

  19. Flopot says:

    “entire situation in Greece” typo :P

    “EU finally losing its patience” another one…I need some sleep.

  20. When the security of a nation depends on it’s Citadel, one dodgy gatekeeper can allow an enemy to install a puppet government. The biggest bribes go to corrupt gatekeepers. ten times more than a general’s pay. it’s worth it!

  21. Wolferl says:

    @ Flopot

    This a comment thread and not the place for a 30 page working paper about the Greek debt problem. You have to live with generalisations.

    What can people do? Paying taxes according to the law would be a start.

    True, now it´s time for the bankster to loot and plunder Greece. That´s what the EU wanted to prevent over the last 2 years. But as usual the Greek elite thought they could outsmart the other EU members. But this problem is to big and complex, you can´t solve it with some billions from the EU. The Greek elite made a big mistakes by underestimating the problem and overestimating the willingness of the core European states to pay for Greece. Now they fucked their country up and the plundering is done by international bankers, without tanks. And of course the Greek masses did nothing to prevent this, since they are bribed by all kinds of benefits and think they have to contribute nothing, because paying taxes is for slaves (TJ). Congratulation, Greeks, well done, you´ve fucked your place up completely. Clean up the mess yourselves.

  22. Vonda Bra says:

    @ Wolferl | February 21, 2012 at 1:49 am |

    It just makes me wanna puke how you always mix the people and their fate with their criminal leaders !!! … most of the people in every country in the world are blind and not aware into what desaster their “trolliticians” have brought them. Thats why I say, they will have to take a hit for not paying attention for too lang. We all will eventually! Thats going to be very ugly, but at least fair!
    But the way you put it is unbearable!!!! But again, you might be one of them, I don´t know? … I would have preferred the Greeks to see whats going on and get out of the EUSSR on their own 3 years ago! … I´m not an expert like you … maybe it would still be better for them to do it NOW … take the hit and try to go from there? … but now we are a few billions later and there seems to be no ending !!!! .. and the EU taxpayers, all of them are due to pay for it … thats pathetic !!!!
    The greeks still have not got rid of the criminals in their government … they have them still “negotiating” … whatever ??????
    I brought up the “bloodthursty” thing, only, because M+S called “the Germans” so in their last KR, which I absolutely disliked …. but in your post YOU seemed to concede a point to this notion !!! ??? :-(

  23. Al Kyder says:

    @ Wolferl

    So you dont like my image :( so said,

    Then I wont say failed states should be allowed to fail. ….. ummm oppps !! damn !

  24. Robert Mockan says:

    A lesson for Americans. If a country is not self sufficient in material goods but especially in agriculture and the food it consumes, and is in hock to buyers of its debt, do not be surprised when the boom is lowered, and all you have is taken in payment.
    Yet still the USA people are having their manufacturing base destroyed, jobs off shored, and allowing the federal government and central banking to sell them out. All losses continue to be socialized, gains privatized among the insane oligarchs.

    There has always been but one solution.

    DESTROY THE INSANE OLIGARCHS!

  25. Helter Skelter says:

    Military coup coming right up

  26. Michel78 says:

    do not feed trolls

  27. Noodles123 says:

    I stand with Wolferl’s statements…When something is so common and becomes a statistic probability it is no longer a generalization or a stereotype it becomes a fact…There is no 100% ANYWHERE…But if I say 50% of Greeks make nothing, consume much and pay no taxes is it more of a lie or a truth?

    If I say the benefit programs they ran have nothing to do with the reality of their economy and are based on credit and money they recieved by cooking their books is it the truth or a lie?

    Look no offense to anyone but they are a poor country, that lived like a rich country and now no one will lend them money without some strings…You can hate what Wolferl and I say but just get this fact through your fat heads:

    1 in 3 working Greeks works for the government

    That right there is your recipe for bureaucracy, red tape, HUGE social programs, dole, stipends, benefit packages, paid holidays…Sooner or later you can’t have what you can’t pay for and I guess 30 years was all she wrote in Greece.

  28. tassos_gr says:

    Revenue Service employee gets arrested for failing to report on illegal tax returns worth hundrends of million of Euros. She is found innocent in the agency’s internal investgation. She is found guilty in the Criminal Court that followed and sentenced to 100 years in prison. As an accused public servant she benefited from the support of free State’s Legal Service. She is now retired with pension as if nothing happened. Appeals and delays in the Greek Justice system will ensure she dies before she steps foot in prison. That sums it up for me perfectly. State corruption, looting, lack of control & lack of punishment. These didn’t create all of Greece’s problems but are definitively an impediment to the solutions needed. It hurts me to say this but we need to fall hard in order to restart everything. Shame on us other countries might be asked to pay for it but Democracy can’t always get rid of worthless politicians. Massive protests are not the way to do it when the mass media present the wrong picture (riots,fires e.t.c.). Kind of a dead end then!!!

  29. aaah says:

    Sung to ‘Blackbird’.

    Jackboot stomping on a Greek guy’s eye.
    take these broken dreams and learn to fly.
    All your life.
    You were only waiting for the default to arrive.
    Jackboot stomping on a Greek guy’s eye.
    Take this sunken economy and learn to see,
    All your life
    You were only waiting for this moment to be free.
    Jackboot cry, Jackboot cry
    into the light of an Athens night

    http://youtu.be/7epRPz0LGPE

  30. chomtronic says:

    I knew the Greek government would comply. When the crash finally happens, and it’s coming soon, the fallout will be spectacular.

  31. Flopot says:

    @Wolferl

    Again with the generalisations – the Greeks are paying the debts of the banks, it has nothing to do with your fantasy of a “fickle Greek tax-dodging stereotype”. Stop spreading the MSM malign meme that the ordinary people (i.e. “Greeks”, “Irish” etc) dug this hole for themselves.

    What do you think this site is all about? Highlighting the global criminal bankster fraud. The Irish are currently paying debts that belong to external parties; nothing at all to do with a “stupid, paddy spud eating populace” that dug this hole for themselves. Wise up Wolferl.

    I do agree with you that the populations are responisble when they continue to vote in cronies of the banking system. But that has more to do with ignorance which sites like this are devoted to fighting, i.e. illuminating the debate. Not obfuscating it like you with ignorant comments.

  32. Flopot says:

    I couldn’t concentrate on my work because of that point you made about generalisations – you are right in that we have to use them when making our points. For example, I am generalising about the “banksters” or perhaps generalising about your generalizations (where did that “z” come from?).

    I will change tact. I think it is more probable that the banksters and their cronies caused the crisis in Greece rather than some inherent character flaw in the Greek psyche. No doubt the Daily Mail propounds the latter point which I think borders on the absurd. Can we place focus on the banksters and the corrupt lawmakers and not national stereotypes.

  33. Flopot says:

    “can we please focus”, another typo…my brain cells are dying :-P

  34. Wolferl says:

    @ Flopot

    The Greeks and Irish are paying for the debt of their governments. I probably agree with you it was really stupid of the Irish to step in for the debt of Anglo-Irish bank and others, but since most of the Irish still seem to agree that they want to be the house niggers of the big international companies and banks it´s just fair they pay to please the slave masters they choose. In in the case of Greece almost everyone got their share of the government debt in the past decades, they are just paying for their own debt. And in both cases the people want to change nothing, they just don´t want to pay and keep all their little privileges. Your ” bankers, lawmakers and Germans are to blame” meme is the stereotype.

  35. Flopot says:

    “Your ” bankers, lawmakers and Germans are to blame” meme is the stereotype.”

    Lol. Well, in the UK “the Germans are to blame” has always been the stereotype for certain sections of the rabid British press and a large section of the population. I am not talking about that.

    The MSM narrative is that the lazy, sneaky Greeks brought it upon themselves, i.e. they were all greedy-in-it together. But when I look at this story I see banksters colluding with corrupt lawmakers.

    Now the EU is colluding with the IMF to introduce shock doctrine tactics to Greece. The cover story is the usual “we cannot trust the greeks” narrative but the real intention is to pillage the country of its wealth.

    Maybe the IMF and EU banksters really believe the theory behind their austerity measures (i.e. neoliberalism) but in the end it only benefits the corporations and the bought off law makers.

    The “Greeks” did not do this to themselves. Neither did the Irish. But I agree with you that the people can certainly do something about it, as opposed to voting in the same gombeen men. However, what can they do when the spineless lawmakers from the main parties agree to a coalition? If that is not collusion to destroy or at least set democracy aside then I don’t know what is.

  36. Flopot says:

    Then again. In representative democracy, the lawmakers represent the people and if the lawmakers are corrupt cronies of the corporations and banks then surely the people are to blame for voting them in? Which brings us back to the brainf**king MSM and ideological driven Economics education.

    I have friends and family in Ireland who keep blaming themselves and Irish greed for getting the country into debt. When I point out that the debt was foreign private debt it does not seem to matter. They are convinced that the Irish people brought the disaster on themselves.

    I know one thing – the Greek and Irish people have it their power now to make the necessary changes. They are not as shackled to the MSM propaganda thanks to the alternative media. So if the Greeks and Irish do not vote in change or if they fall to the temptations of populist ideologues then they only have themselves to blame.

    Btw, I believe the EU has succumbed to the doctrine of neoliberalism – which explains part of the crisis. Possibly the rich and powerful in the EU saw something in the US model that would enrich themselves beyond belief. What is happening in Greece was not supposed to be the spirit of the EU. And I am a believer in that original spirit. Perhaps I was naive (in fact I know I am!).

  37. trooper dave says:

    @Michel78 | February 21, 2012 at 7:34 am |
    do not feed trolls

    Who do you mean?
    @ Wolferl What can people do? Paying taxes according to the law would be a start.
    ….. And of course the Greek masses did nothing to prevent this, since they are bribed by all kinds of benefits and think they have to contribute nothing…….. Congratulation, Greeks, well done, you´ve fucked your place up completely. Clean up the mess yourselves.

    Of course! The Greek people are lazy, stupid people who sit around all day drinking oozo and do nothing. All the actions their gubberment took and implement were described to them in intricate details with all the consequences and responsibilities AND the people nodded their heads and said “go ahead!”

    Gubberments operate as follows, They will offer you a future where you will never feel unsafe or harmed again, you cross the box for that promise; now the people are exterminated, they will never feel ANYTHING again, the promise is fulfilled and the people AGREED to it.
    Wolferl you spout bankster propaganda, “sorry the people are responsible because they voted in their gubberments! It matters not that the people knew nothing of the actions of these people, now suck it up it is your own fault” OH, PLEASE!!!!!!!!!!!!

  38. trooper dave says:

    @FolpotI have friends and family in Ireland who keep blaming themselves and Irish greed for getting the country into debt..

    Exactly! People who bought plasma tv are to blame. They stuck that debt hypodermic into themselves willingly. Never mind that that debt drug was pushed on them as a almost harmless drug, but above all a NECESSARY drug, without which you are worthless. Yeah, this is all the little peoples fault. Damn those leprechaun!!! If only they could think for themselves, ah nevermind, they will be made to pay just surely as they were MADE to get that plasma tv.

  39. Robert Mockan says:

    People being taken for a ride should not blame themselves when they are robbed and pushed out of the car into a ditch.

    http://www.thedailybell.com/3629/EUs-Prodi-Admits-Euroleaders-Knew-Euro-Would-Cause-Difficult-Moments-The-Rest-Will-Follow-

    “.. The EU’s top politicos knew what was going to happen to the European Union and in fact, they planned for it. We can see from this shocking excerpt (above) just how duplicitous these “leaders” were.

    Yes, Romano Prodi has now actually admitted it. Those running the EU, and those standing behind them, are trying to create world government and the European Union was evidently and obviously created as a stepping-stone.”

    “..obvious that the Anglosphere power elite that is behind the world’s march toward global government had a political union in mind all along. And the current vicious attacks on PIGS’ sovereignty is further evidence of this.”

    The Greek people STILL need to take the damn armories!
    What is it about INSANE OLIGARCHS that is so difficult for people to understand?

  40. Noodles123 says:

    Victim Mentality all around…Lets split the cost on the whole “Ireland is the same as Greek debt problem.”

    Greeks are in debt for things they borrowed and enriched themselves with…IE huge benfit programs.

    The Irish are mainly in debt because their Bank Slave Politicians used trickery to publically absorb private bank losses.

    The Irish have a right to default and riot (Possible hang a few for treason)…The Greeks have a right to understand that their way of life for the last 30 years was based on credit and fraud AND they can’t have the benfits they were used to…They are the “Selfish, entitled bratty teenagers of the EU.”

    Greece: “Hey I know I’ve been really bad with money, I already borrowed continously for the last THIRTY years and never kept my promises, BUT I promise to slow my partying and pay you back if you lend me some more of Grandma’s/Grandpa’s savings that you had for their retirement.”

    Germany: “No, not without some strings attached.”

    Greece: “Fuck you! You greedy dirty N*zis!…(Short Pause)…Errrrrm so can I still get that loan?”

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