Stacy Summary: Sorry for delay in posting this but had to find my original files from studio today. Here is a 23 minute interview with Stefan Molyneux!
What would Jesus do? Mark Lytle
Jesus answered them, “Has it not been written in your Law, ‘I SAID, YOU ARE GODS’? If he called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken), do you say of Him, whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’? John 10:34-36 (New American Standard Bible)
Notice Jesus said “(and the Scripture cannot be broken)” but you Mark Lytle presume it is broken?
It does you no good to try to pit Jesus against the OT since He upholds it.
I just watched the first clip. …Exactly! But where are these moral dictates going to come from? Who is the authority? Because I am an Orthodox Anglican Christian… I say my Triune God. But I am not going to coerce others to do the same, except my children and those who work for me. I don’t want the state to coerce me into accepting moral dictates that are against my faith either. Income tax…, debt longer than 6 years, sex outside the bonds of marriage, abortion, unjust war, unjust war, unjust war, … are against my faith. my tax money pays for these things.
I need to watch the other two…
The Hebrews were a nation chosen by God via Abraham to SET them apart from the pagan Baal worship and of course Molech that is why Jehovah punished the Hebrew nation when they allowed there children to pass through fire. Became they were no different from the nations they needed to be disciplined. I have noticed when it comes to Christianity your argument is tainted with uneducated prejudice the bible is the greatist book ever written,read it in context, my advice at least 3/4 times,honest you will enjoy it.
The Bible with all its racism and genocides done in the name of God who supposedly chose a certain people in question for a piece of real estate in a desert, is NOT a reference of moral code to implement, specially the Old Testament. Nice passages but globally the message is the following. We are the chosen people and we can exterminate and genocide who we want in the name of God. Guns Oil and Drugs. That’s the Old Testament. Things never change. So when do they exterminate Iran in the name of their judeo-christian loving God ?
Yeah I become atheist when I think about the Old Terstamant. Jesus was quite different. Nothing to do with bastards like Bush and Clinton or right wing evanlegical USA fascists.
Awesome interview Max. I listened to this essay by Lysander Spooner the other day that talks about this very ethic. It’s long, but very much worth a couple of hours… has some entertainment value as well. I include the link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VYJTWa5v24I&playnext=1&videos=OQJT523a8Hk&feature=sub
To F. Beard: In the society these fellas are talking about you would be free to believe and do as you choose. To my mind Stephan and Max are discussing a world where Jesus’ values could be adopted and exercised to whatever exteme you wanted. More importantly, true free will places the responsibility directly on your own shoulders. I believe in the Jesus teachings; my only difficulty lies in how doctrine has been hijacked by the state. God Bless.
To my mind Stephan and Max are discussing a world where Jesus’ values could be adopted and exercised to whatever exteme you wanted. More importantly, true free will places the responsibility directly on your own shoulders. I Doug Graves
You’ve nailed it! A libertarian society would not penalize virtue as our present one does. But evil is always seeking to leverage itself via government privilege or power. Good shall always prevail on a level playing field but of course evil won’t allow such a thing if it can get away with it. Hence the government backed banking cartel among others.
My cousin’s daughter has been released from the hospital to go home to pass away from cancer. She likely won’t survive another 48 hours.
Aaaargh, another libertarian! But he seemes a nice chap, it would take a long time for a new philosophical/moral paradigm to establish itself, if it ever could universally though (its never happened before).
Somehow whenever i listen to libertarians i always get these flashbacks to a charlton heston film called the Omega Man! Dont know why.
The idea of government is simply a form of arbitration and coordination of large groups of people, doesnt seem to me to be intrinsicaly evil but i agree that an important part of any society is a philosophical//moral consensus although helpful is always a certain level of individual awarenss which seems increasingly lacking. I think that some form of socialism is the right way despite the mistakes of history.
Liked his idea about idiot philosophy though although humour does sometimes short circuit (or at least divert) thought processes, oh its all so complex, better go to bed.
@Old Testament ‘genocide’
God is demonstrating his perfect Justice…
harsh, maybe, definitive, certianly.
..in Christ his perfect Mercy.
In addition to possibility the residents of Canaan were offspring of fallen spiritual entities.
“One final point: even if we were to accept that the slaughtered Canaanites were not fully human, this hardly solves our bigger problem of reconciling the violent-tending God of the Old Testament with the self-sacrificial God of the New Testament, for there are plenty of other violent episodes Yahweh engages in against people, often using his people as warriors. This is the very sort of behavior Jesus forbids. So…let’s keep reading and thinking.”
1 Cpr 10:11Now all these things happened unto them(Israel) for examples: and they are written for our admonition.
It ain’t those parts of the Bible
that I can’t understand that bother me,
it is the parts that I do understand.-Mark Twain
“A libertarian society would not penalize virtue as our present one does.”
there is no penalty to be paid in ANY society to live a virtous life…reread the Prodigal son…Virtue to be true must be internalize and become who you are and how you conduct your affairs therefore you seek no praise or suffer any harm from doing this
doesn’t mean an outside subject may say you were just or you were treated poorly….but the subject recognizes neither
sucks being a Christian don’t it no glory and no whinning
I agree with this article: You must read.
I think your site is going to have to get superfocused over the remainder of 2010…at some point, some tipping points are going to tip and events are going to accelerate. You had better revisit your claim of an economic malaise (deflation) like Japan. It is going to get very short, very nasty and very brutish…and soon and indeed.
there is no penalty to be paid in ANY society to live a virtous life chArles
… therefore, we ourselves speak proudly of you among the churches of God for your perseverance and faith in the midst of all your persecutions and afflictions which you endure. This is a plain indication of God’s righteous judgment so that you will be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which indeed you are suffering. 2 Thessalonians 1:4-6 (New American Standard Bible)
One of the things about the Bible I love is that it does not deny reality.
The thing i really appreciate about Max is that he seems open to the various standpoints on the current financial/political/eco dilemna yet you sense his anlysis is somehow steered by a positive morality and intelligence that simultaneously isnt overbearing. Intelligence, humour, morality, analysis and a decent portion of cynicism. Max you should be speaking to the masses.
All religions use force, therefore violate Molyneux’s non-aggression principle. Christianity has probably been the worst offender.
No wonder some people say Molyneux is a cult leader. His views, if practiced, would completely free humanity. Religion, government, and big business would be very concerned and frightened if his ideas grabbed a foothold into the human psyche.
@ Max – This was a great interview. You were on your game. I would love to see a follow-up where you press Molyneux on how to implement his ideas.
Now that would be a true revolution.
@ F. Beard
and your quote refutes me how?
that suffering is to be human and be worthy of your G-d? seriously at a lost my contention to you was that you said your little Libertarian wet dream would be more just to the virtous man/woman because they wouldn’t be penalized like our current structure penelizes the virtous…you can’t reward or punish the virtous man/women…that is my statement…we can judge the actions taken against said person…but the virtous sees neither penalty or reward for his/her life
AGAIN sucks…BUT THAT’S THE GAME…is that possible to live that life? even the little jewish kid failed
also friendly advice…internalize the word…make it your own…don’t parrot it
anyone can copy and paste…and parroting any work or any man words lessens them…it was a cool palor trick when I was 12, but hopefully in life we become comfortable enough with our own voice to raise it in the great debate of life
…you can’t reward or punish the virtous man/women…that is my statement…we can judge the actions taken against said person…but the virtous sees neither penalty or reward for his/her life chArles
I disagree. Job was righteous but he complained to God. He WAS suffering.
One way the current structure penalizes the virtuous is that they are taxed for schools that they would rather not send their kids too.
OK, try this one:We can be “cured” of the ill effects dichotomy only voluntarily: “for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other.”
This is why in universal personhood it is recommended to: “ reckon ye also yourselves to be dead” . This is akin to self hypnosis. “transformed by the renewing of your mind”,“Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.” ,“above all these things put on charity, which is the bond of perfectness.”, “Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth.”, ” But yet in it shall be a tenth, and it shall return, and shall be eaten: as a teil tree, and as an oak, whose substance is in them, when they cast their leaves: so the holy seed shall be the substance thereof.”
Your interaction with Stefan Molyneux was the best that I have seen you do. Most of your guests tend to “resist” your “shaping” their ideas to compare with your own (i.e. your reference to fraud as a counterfeit); but Stefan and yourself were participating in the “free exchange” principles that you were discussing; well done! I recommend that you have Stefan on frequently and you will do a great service to your viewers; as these viewers rarely get such a sterling example of “real debate” that occurs between the two of you.
Ahhh JOB…that’s my boy…he also was smart enough to recognize that his conception of morality had superseded his creator and SHUT UP before calling old G-d out
great book by old Carl Jung entitled “An answer to Job” worth a read…but Job wasn’t virtous he was a whinner
I don’t think the US evoked “property rights” to justify looting Iraqi oil.
We lied and used the “self defense” alibi, to steal the property.
This is not an Adam Smith principle and cannot be used to disprove Smith.
but Job wasn’t virtous he was a whinner chArles
“Son of man, if a country sins against Me by committing unfaithfulness, and I stretch out My hand against it, destroy its supply of bread, send famine against it and cut off from it both man and beast, even though these three men, Noah, Daniel and Job were in its midst, by their own righteousness they could only deliver themselves,” declares the Lord GOD. Ezekiel 14:13-15 (New American Standard Bible)
read your quote and tell me honestly what posseses a Man to worship such a beast?
that “thing” is a murderous monster…if you are unable to see it then you have failed in a way Job did not…our conception of G-d alters dependent upon man’s changing state with it’s enviroment…your Bronze age monstrosity is a reflection of man terrorfied of its world, a beast living under constant threat from it’s enviroment…we are no longer that animal…and Job was the turning point in that wandering tribe conception of G-d…allowing a more benevolet understanding….gave the world a half way decent philosphy until it got merged with the state and Empire, but it’s soul was still there…but even that glimmer of the Faith sorta got smashed up in the last Century with the advancement in science and then both science and religions failure to answer the great questions of the 20th century…untold human slaughter…but the Janus head adapted the best it could
read some Kierkegaard,Tolstoy, Doestesky, Samual Becket, Paul Tillich Reinhold Niebuhr or Gabriel Honoré Marcel
I am not taking a cheap shot here Beard the Cheap shot would be to point out the great sin of modern Government was to tax you for schools you do not wish your children to attend…that is you great ifringment by this society against the virtous man, the sin that pops forth in your mind…not one million dead people who just had the misfortune to be born in Iraq that this government has slaughtered, with my and your tax dollars…truthfully if they spent the money on that war towards building schools for all the bastard children in the world I would not so much as utter a peeep…
this comment is SAD Beard
“One way the current structure penalizes the virtuous is that they are taxed for schools that they would rather not send their kids too.”
that is what sprang forth so quickly to the minds eye…and you are unable to see that is sad, which you can’t because your G-d is a monsterous G-d, a literal G-d of a bronze age text…coupled with your new G-d of Mammon that you have been induced into worshiping if you are fretting over taxes/money, give Ceaser his coin, and get over the parroting
It is the inability of Christians to see the problems with Joshua , that mkes them easily led to war with other cultures today. The statement that Jesus supported the scriptures makes sense. He had to say that to ‘sell ‘himself to the Jews. It didn’t work by the way.
I also highly doubt Jesus would have condoned what happened in joshua if pressed…He wasn’t a baby killer…
10 signs US is becoming a third world country.
O.K. we’ll correct this statement to conform to many here. Here goes:
But Jesus said, “Let the little children come to me and do not hinder them, for to such belongs the kingdom of heaven. Except those Canaanite kids, they had to go…”
chArles, forgive my intrusion here, but to your Q “what posseses a Man to worship such a beast?”, my answer would be that our calling demands it. But could I dare ask why you care? You reference my good man Fyodor, but his sensitivity and heart were evident in every line. I do not find this in your words. Vonnegut does comes to mind though. Fyodor at last found light in the darkness, your words remind me of a man looking for the light switch with a sledge hammer. Are you looking for peace, or revolution? Do you hope to enlighten, or bring someone to a place where you now find yourself? Your argument is sleek, and I in your position would take pride in it, but to my ear it is constructed out of daggers and despair. Should we be repulsed by the infusion of utilitarianism into the faith, why yes, but what concern is that of one who has walked away?
Just caught up with your Paul Craig Roberts piece. He is a deep thinker and I have quoted him to others…good choice…
Well you know, both side in this debate could be a little gentler. I’ve been called some pretty rough names here, but I’m a Yankee, we don’t react. I focus on Jesus, because he claimed the title of King of the Jews, he knew they would reject him on all counts because he didn’t come with a flaming sword to drive the Romans out. But Christians are still trying to recruit him for military causes and conquests, and that is what makes a lot of people hostile. What did Gandi say? “I like your Christ but not your Christians.”
I was more fortunate. I married a very fine Christian lady. If she was like most, I would never had come near..
John The Baptist was a contrarian.
You know, survived on a diet of honey-garlic locusts.
“Jesus was no social reformer. His teachings had no moral application to life on earth, and his instructions to the disciples only have a meaning in the light of their immediate aim—to await the Lord with girded loins and burning lamps, ‘that when he cometh and knocketh, they may straightaway open unto him.'”
–Ludwig Von Mises, Socialism (1932)
“Jesus entered the temple area and drove out all who were buying and selling there. He overturned the tables of the money changers and the benches of those selling doves. ‘It is written,’ he said to them, ”My house will be called a house of prayer,’but you are making it a ‘den of robbers.”'”
Matthew 21:12-13 (New International Version)
Interesting quotes….I think The Libertarian got it wrong, although I’m slightly Libertarian myself…
I see Jesus as a gentle Hell-raiser! Subtle to a fault, but blunt where necessary..
I watched the second clip.
History has shown… Moses…, Augustine…, Justinian …, Charlemagne…, Alfred the Great…, Napoleon…., Cromwell… that man is not capable of selfless self-moral-dictate.
Stefan and Max fear have moved people and does move people. People are mostly cowards.
There must be one that knows how all things work. There must be a good shepherd and just courts. There is only one that is knowledgeable, good and just. And, by the posts on this blog, one that strikes fear in the heart of men towards either revolt or peace.
Mises didn’t get it wrong. He lied. That’s what propagandists do.
Mises was simply too brilliant to be that wrong unintentionally. He had a massive intellect, and he was not the least bit naive.
Yes, I see your point on that.
Watched the third clip. Exactly… but government is different from the statist oligarchy.
A government has just courts and only one civil tax ( 1/2 shekel silver from every man 20+years). The law applies to all. There are no long term prisons. The law itself is righteous. The government also includes sacraments, diet and an awe for creation – a faith that the government will restore all things to “very good”. It has a hope and future orientation and a family centered vehicle. It has a day of rest, a 7th and 50th year of rest for the entire creation and economy. It does not tolerate treason against the family.
People prefer the statist oligarchy because they love prisons, larceny, adultry, murder, gluttony, autonomy, self-pity, viagra, magic ….
Jefferson declared war on the Middle East in response to acts of piracy? Did I miss that one? I thought Jefferson used a letter of marque..? I have to disagree with Molyneux that the government was founded on “genocide of the Native Americans.” That it occurred is not disputed, but it wasn’t founded upon that. What happened, which is what always happens, is that psychopaths found their way into the government and military and began acting as psychopaths do…and that’s what we’ve got today. Absolute psychopaths in positions of power and influence. America is pretty much toast.
read your quote and tell me honestly what posseses a Man to worship such a beast? ChArles
The Lord longs to be gracious but He is the final Judge too. Would you prefer an impersonal Universe with no possibility of mercy? Read Jeremiah, if you please. The Lord gave the Jews time after time to repent but they refused or went back on their solemn oath:
Jeremiah 34:8-32 (New American Standard Bible)
As for America’s wars, they are an abomination,IMO. I have made that clear on several occasions. Must I make it clear on every occasion?
Are we in a religious forum? Seriously, guys.
Max, good job interviewing an otherwise stereotypical RADICAL LIBERTARIAN, the sort that sound interesting at first but then you notice that their perceived edginess is actually CONCEIVED WISDOM ON STEROIDS – nothing new at all, same old thing but worse. Let me explain:
Notwithstanding his self-chosen title of “Voluntarist” his ideas sound like they are coming from an ANARCHO-CAPITALIST. This ill-named school of thought is nothing but conservative economics in extremis: no government altogether instead of “small government”. It is simplistic ideology, of the same ilk as Ayn Rand’s disfunctional leavings.
Anarcho-Capitalism essentially tries to force reality to conform to the theoretical model of a free market place. It is therefore completely radical and dangerously removed from anything humane.
Yes, government is the source of much badness, however we do know what takes its place in government’s absence: feudalism. That is, raw power will assert itself; some people’s “enlightened” self-interest will triumph over other’s. You end up with a Mafia model of society (also known as the Middle Ages). And, yes, there will be war, government has no monopoly on it.
Historically, the modern nation state has helped deliver the people from the tyranny of arbitrary individuals. Sure, government does get corrupted but it still offers a framework of power balance. Don’t judge government by the bad example of the United States where feudal, mafia-like cliques have usurped a state in order to overthrow it. Essentially with the same goal in mind as Mr Molyneux: no government. It is these cliques that are responsible for the misallocation of tax dollars from projects for the people to projects for the few.
@ Michael “Are we in a religious forum? Seriously, guys.”
Like it or not economics is a religious issue. The situation we are in today is religious and the answer is religious. What you believe is right and just is religious.
But could I dare ask why you care?
could be poetic and say the Devil is his creators strongest advocate against those he deems unworthy of her GRACE…but doubt if many would understand that…could state have grown weary of a bastardized vision of G-d’s infinite grace by her advocates who still use her as a club…could take the elitist pose and say the literal have done more harm with the Word than any good that could have been recouped…or maybe just bored at work
@” Fyodor at last found light in the darkness, your words remind me of a man looking for the light switch with a sledge hammer.”
that’s because I’m playing the role of Ivan in this morality play. The tears of a child outweigh infinite GRACE…but I gave an onion so I’m a’right.
@ Are you looking for peace, or revolution?
as a child a Heaven of Hell and Hell of Heaven, now indifference
@ Do you hope to enlighten, or bring someone to a place where you now find yourself?
niether, do not believe one is possible humanity has lost itself, and dispite my Hatred don’t wish ill of anyone let alone to be pulled down to my realm
@ Your argument is sleek, and I in your position would take pride in it, but to my ear it is constructed out of daggers and despair.
Pride such harsh word to use, you wound me…but alas I have dance this dance once or twice and do take comfort in knowing the steps by heart, as for as despair goes, I know I will be welcomed back with open arms any time I chose it, so my suffering is only as great as I will it.
@ Should we be repulsed by the infusion of utilitarianism into the faith, why yes, but what concern is that of one who has walked away?
because it may reveal a new TRUTH that has been clouded by mindless adherence to a creed that has failed to salvage all
in Dante’s holy little laugh fest…the Devil is shown to be crying….do you know why? a child’s answer he is absent G-d’s infinite Grace, but he is only as far from his creator as he wills it…so why the show?
because he is right
@ Mark Lytle
as to tone…they weren’t taking shots at me but you, and my smashing a bronze age text reader isn’t being harsh, if someone is putting forth ideas that I believe we as a specis have outpaced I am entitled to tell them their text isn’t worthy of their commitment…just if I was here obsessively quoting Hericlitus that would be within their right to say that isn’t adding anything to the conversation…call me elitist if you want to
I don’t see Jesus being as duplicitious as you would have me believe…in him not openly attacking the Bronze age text because he was trying to attract a crowd…I maintain his open difiance of the religious dogma of the day is what attracted folks to him….he came with a sword least we forget to set child against parent and wife against spouse
Ivan was not Forodor chArles, the suffering of Ivan was of his own hand while the suffering of his creator was the pure form, fordged by the hand of God for a direct purpose, that brand of suffering that can bring a man low, to that place that pride is finally discharged from our purpose. When the man yeilds, that is the beauty of the OT, seeing the work of stripping these barnacles of pride, they are hard and their roots run deep. This is why the man will cry out. He has dicovered the depth of his pettiness. But only now is this man of any use, only now can his hand make use of truth, because it will not be his own hand. But what do we own? Not even this reality. We steer in defiance of our loathing of compliance to a suspended world where we are making choices. And this is a dream, and if prolonged it will become a horror. I have seen this horror, I know it, this was a gift and blessing. For the Christian who does not know this, there is more of the journey to travel, for the Christian who does, there is only work to do.
Thanks for you time chArles
“Historically, the modern nation state has helped deliver the people from the tyranny of arbitrary individuals. Sure, government does get corrupted but it still offers a framework of power balance. Don’t judge government by the bad example of the United States where feudal, mafia-like cliques have usurped a state in order to overthrow it. Essentially with the same goal in mind as Mr Molyneux: no government. It is these cliques that are responsible for the misallocation of tax dollars from projects for the people to projects for the few.”
Hurrah, some sense on this thread.
I find libertarians somewhat suspicious. Essentially people are social beings or are happiest when the social framework of society is condusive to social interaction. The current neoliberal climate, a kind of proxy darwinism hiding behind the nation state, is, as far as i can see, ultimately condusive to destructive behaviour, picking up an automatic rifle and shooting a bunch of strangers being one of the more extreme examples of this.
I think libertariansim is just turning your back on the concept of society which i can understand, its something i’d like to do myself, but its defeatism and worse, its naive.
This is the first interview I’ve seen by Stefan Molyneux and he was quite impressive. He nailed Rothbard’s non-aggression axoim, clearly explained Hoppe’s argument on self ownership and the contradictions inherent to an argument against property rights, and Hoppe’s points on the peculiar incentives of a democratic govt. Really well done. But he blew Max’s softball question at the end of the interview on Intellectual Property. The best answer is that there is no such thing as Intellectual Property. IP is a legal fiction. Property rights can only exist in things that are scarce. With file sharing, my ability to enjoy a song does not in any way hamper your ability to simutaneously enjoy the song. Indeed, my song is a copy of your song and not the same one that you would be listening to. Creating property rights in intangible things artificially reduces the amount of people that can enjoy the thing. It is welfare reducing in the purest sense. For more see Stephan Kinsella’s Against Intellectual Property (http://mises.org/journals/jls/15_2/15_2_1.pdf). Great interview Max!
Sure got the numb skulls all all popping into each other, but this guy is brilliant. Awesome guest Max!
This guy interviewed is a nut job,. I thought his property rights argument was stupid and inept so I went to his site and searched “property rights”,. the resulting podcast is a sting on non-arguments that just ramble on and on and never gets to any point,. he spends 20 min. trying to prove people are in control of their own bodies,. great. I really did not need to be convinced of that. Property is land, and oil, and actual stuff. I am still listening waiting for any argument about actual property.., oh, here we go a guy picks and orange and somehow this is the product of his body? Really? I thought a tree produced the orange.., silly me.
The problems I have with property rights is with land, oil, fish, etc, things that are common resources produced by the earth,. not peoples bodies. This is never addressed in this long winded pointless conveluted null argument,. it is just some lame attempt at justifing private ownership over everything,. property rights only exist through threats of force and this brakes his other main point,. self contradictry I say., this market anachism inevitably leads to the sick monopalistic war-machine capitalism we now have,. banksters and corporations are systematically taking resources that belong to all of us; privatizing all gains and socializing losses,.. this guy has no solution, only a bad attempt to justify the broken system while pushing for more market fudalism.
NOW we are having a conversation! Bravo! I hope you asked Stefan about Marc Stevens. I would love to see you interview him as well. ONE LOVE!