[1083] The Truth About Markets – London – 28 November 2009

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168 comments on “[1083] The Truth About Markets – London – 28 November 2009
  1. dan valley says:

    GAIA HAT for Mother Earth by Al Gore


  2. Youri Carma says:


    Agree, but you are the scientist so you can tell me. I use a lot of Nicotine so what does this mean? Cobra toxin on the Nicotine receptors mmmmm so…..?

  3. Bonn says:

    Oks People on the Climate Change

    To say the Sun Has nothing to do with climate change is prepostorous.Again using my 6th Sense
    # The Sun Encourages Plants to take in CO2 during daylight and produce O2 Photo Synthesis.
    # The Sun Affects our Climate change every 24 hours. Where i stay its warmer during Day and Cooler during night. To dismiss by saying its a repeatitive cycle and has no effect on the earth is well ….
    # Th Cloud formation Evaporation. Jet streams etc.
    # the Scientest are talking like aaawe thats not Important
    # Sun flares do affect the Climate .
    I sure remeber 4 years back we had really different climate here in Bangalore, we had torrential rain like almost . This year we have had not much rain. I ham guessing the Sun Flares had something to do with that

    In Conclusion Climate change occurs but not because of Humans and two if you have seen a person lie like a Govt. Body which wants to get involved with Carbon credits why would you wanna trust that person who has’nt been reformed. Why
    CR by humans is a farce in my opnion

  4. anything but green.again says:

    @ Dedo

    So you had something to do with Sharon’s disappearance?
    Sure hope she’s having fun, wherever she is.

    Kind of strange how quiet the authorized media are about the leaked emails. Guess some of them were out of the loop.
    Oh, but the bring-on-the-hate-laws-Fox pedophiles will be yapping away, with their “It’s time” messages. Revolutions take an awful lot of organizing.

  5. dan valley says:

    Nancy Pelosi and Newt Gingrich Commercial on Climate Change


  6. Mep says:

    @ Marietta – Re: the MWP, I didn’t read that portion of an e-mail as an attempt to falsify data. In various models that I’ve seen, the MWP isn’t a big spike–at least not as big as come would expect. So it makes sense that since the MWP is one thing that scientists have strong opinions about, there would be a desire to go back another 1,000 years to see how big of an increase in warming there was at that point relative to the data from the prior 1,000 years.

    On all other points, I’m with you. These e-mails have come up a couple of times during the holiday with family & it’s been frustrating. Most frustrating is having people who know absolutely nothing about science cry “scandal” because someone told them to. Truth is that all any one of us can do is speculate. It would be difficult, even with full e-mails, to determine what procedures they’re talking about or to come anywhere near understanding them unless we were in the field, ourselves, and were intimately familiar with their past research.

    If these people are guilty of any fraud, they will be found out.

  7. Bonn says:

    I mean some Suns “Eat up thier inner planets” ,I wanna place All Gore on one of those planets RODFLPMSL

  8. Mep says:

    @ marietta – The university response says that their researchers do not own the raw data:


  9. WL says:


    Have you read the Hansen research? It is a joke. The data collection procedures and methods are not based in science..more like interpreted bs or psychology. Manipulating and guessing and discounting temp data from different sources using different instruments, filling in data based on assumptions just convinced me that these are not scientists. There is no way they could determine the temp of the earth without a significant error from such an uncontrolled, scattered, backward, random looking dataset. Conversely, the modern satellite measurements are more consistent and accurate showing a cooling trend. Ice core samples similar controversy. CO2 measurements form Hawaii, hello it is a freakin volcano.

    You know Hansen was arrested protesting at a coal mine…That is ideology not science.

    The problem, climate science is in its infancy really. The scientific process has been superseded by junior psuedoscientists ego, money and politics.

    Legitimate scientific inquiry has been corrupted. Climate science can’t be elevated to the level of other hard sciences. Yet, we give these fraudsters the credit that science should deserves.

    Calling these guys scientist is like calling Anna Nichole Smith a talented actress.

  10. Bonn says:

    @ dan valley
    Nancy Pelosi Techno Chicken
    Too funny
    I mean this chick was saying 500 million americans would loose thier jobs everymonth if we did not pass the bailout. And if she is gonna tell me climate change is being caused by Humans solely . These Guys were all Lawyers before they became politicians. Ofc the trend in the 1960’s was to get a Hollywood star for the presidency then. It’s iether an actor or a lier er sorry lawyer

  11. marietta says:

    @ youri
    If you are ever bitten by a cobra, then you will know (right before you die) the name of the receptors in your brain that the cobra’s toxin are binding to. Isn’t this web site educational?!!
    And you should stop smoking. There are nicotinic receptors in muscle too, and when nicotine binds to these receptors over a prolonged period, muscle wasting is the result.

  12. marietta says:

    Thanks for the post. If they are working on getting permission to release the data, then that is a good thing. But you have to ask yourself why it took the release of the emails to finally prompt them to do so. It should have been automatic the first time it was requested.

  13. frances snoot says:

    I read your post, and I wonder who you claim has indicated ‘expert’ status on climate change here. I think mostly, people who are termed ‘climate deniers’ have only wished to have a chance to dialogue about the science underlying the claims set to charge a body politic.

    And everyone has a right to question what they read even from a peer reviewed journal. You tell Youri not to smoke because of nicotine, but the peer review has recently decided that nicotine is not harmful. Does that mean that you are claiming expert status, or does that mean that science has been wrong?

    Because science can be wrong, will be wrong, and when common sense is indicated over science, then one should act in a way which protects one’s own interests.

  14. marietta says:

    regarding your family. Print one of the actual research articles, ask them to read it and then explain what it means. Then they can put their 2 cents in.
    And about the MWP. I know i cant’ speak to the extent of it. I was only taught in grade school that the vikings were able to colonize Greenland for awhile and then they weren’t .

    You know it’s interesting. The people who believe AGW seem to also believe big pharma is trying to kill everyone with vaccines. How can one giant scientific entity backed by the UN be completely untrustworthy yet the other completely trustworthy?

  15. Youri Carma says:

    @Bonn @WL

    Sometimes I get the feeling people refuse to use their brain. They rather go up stupid in the crowd like lemmings of a cliff.

    If you think about it with the weather computer models we have today they can only predict the weather accurately for a couple of days here in the Netherlands where the weather changes day by day. I would say it’s accurate on three days depending in what kinda system you are.

    So if you use your bloody grey cells you can deduct that the IPCC can’t predict anything accurately over a couple of years. We don’t even know what the sun will do at the moment cause it’s abnormal low or even lacking sunspots. It’s even to ridiculous to say here that the sun is the big influencer. What do these sansters of the IPCC think? That if you take away the sun CO2 will do the trick? Absolutely ridiculous.

    It seems that the people became so stupid you can make them believe anything since they refuse to think for themselves. The MSM is completely worthless and bought and paid for to spread the big lies. People sadly think that if somting is on their telly it must be true.

    They’re all delusional also about the economy. Being (abnormal) positive is the norm so if you come with the truth which isn’t always pleasant you get simply rejected only on the fact that it doesn’t fit their delusional “Alice in Wonderland” imaginary world so than they call you a Doomer Gloomer. But you arn’t a Dommer Gloomer you simply state the truth. BBC is very good on the delusional side and don’t talk about it maybe it goes away by itself or maybe doesn’t exist.

    Get real people!

  16. Gordo says:

    Newt Gingrich ???on making commercials about the climate change. Scary maybe I need to reconsider.

  17. Youri Carma says:


    Yeah, have to stop smokin yourright. Didn’t know about the muscles.

  18. Gordo says:

    @ marietta

    “You know it’s interesting. The people who believe AGW seem to also believe big pharma is trying to kill everyone with vaccines. How can one giant scientific entity backed by the UN be completely untrustworthy yet the other completely trustworthy?”

    You are putting words into others mouths.
    I never claimed that pharma is trying to kill everyone. What I have said is they are completely profit driven and if you trust then to have your interests in mind, good luck.

    The same goes for big oil and coal that fund the deniers. Good luck with them also.

  19. Bonn says:

    Oks suppose i belive all these guys like Al Gore
    You make the preumptions of all Scientific Data.
    Let me assume what ever they are saying is true
    The computer model is fine and Dandy and its working perfectly
    Now what about the Resources that USA spends 1 million dollars per soldier per year . Do all Army and Navy and Airforce movement of all the worlds armys/Airforce/Navy get fed into that Computer model ?
    I would think not.
    And plus as Video conferencing improoves there is gonna be less travel. Travel will eventually be a tourism Industry. Has this been factored into the Computer model or have they takin a chart which is pointing upwards and logically think its gonna rise. Nobody written letters is going on a downward trend Newspapers are closing down . there are far too many factors which can effect their Climate model which i anyway dont belive in.

  20. Dave says:

    So the global warming hoax is finally openly discussed. http://www.petitionproject.org/

  21. Bonn says:

    Oks suppose i belive all these guys like Al Gore
    You make the presumptions of all Scientific Datathey use is true
    Let me assume what ever they are saying is true
    The computer model is fine and Dandy and its working perfectly
    Now what about the Resources that USA spends 1 million dollars per soldier per year . Do all Army and Navy and Airforce movement of all the worlds armys/Airforce/Navy get fed into that Computer model ?
    I would think not. I mean I could Retire with 1 million Dollars right now. That means the remaining 40 years or so Bonn will live on that 1 mill he doesnt need more.
    And plus as Video conferencing improoves there is gonna be less travel. Travel will eventually be a tourism Industry. Has this been factored into the Computer model or have they takin a chart which is pointing upwards and logically think its gonna rise. Nobody written letters is going on a downward trend Newspapers are closing down . there are far too many factors which can effect their Climate model which i anyway dont belive in.

  22. Bonn says:

    oops sorry for posting twice I got Disconnected when i pressed Submit

  23. marietta says:

    I’m just saying that we cant’ truely know who’s data is correct any more than even a climate scientist can know if the data in another area of science is correct. I have no idea how climate models work or the mathematics behind their calculations. We have to trust that the peer review process is valid so that’s why it would be alarming if that has been compromised. In other words, if i support the data of the climate modlers and i don’t know how he calculated his numbers, how can I know that he is correct?
    Another thing people don’t realize . not all peer reviewed journals are equal when it comes to quality of the papers they publish. There are a lot of labs that get funding that don’t really contribute to the scientific literature. Their papers can often be explained by artifacts of their experimental methods. They submit their papers to journals that are run and reviewed by other mediocre scientists like themselves. All this extraineous information is just noise that the top labs in a field will just ignore.
    Also, I have a basic skepticism about climate science in general. There is way too much indirect measurement. and then they claim to be absolutely certain about future warming levels. That would be like an archeologist using their indirct methods of observations about fossils to precisely predict how humans will evolve in the future.

  24. frances snoot says:

    “We have to trust that the peer review process is valid so that’s why it would be alarming if that has been compromised.”

    I believe that peer-review is like testing in schools. It has a valid place but not the only place. Scientists themselves are saying that peer review has been a means to bully the opposing viewpoint. It is alarming because science is being used to drive profit for the elite few at the expense of public health.

  25. marietta says:

    Sorry, sorry!
    That was too much of a generalization on my part. I actually worked in big pharma too (now you guys are going to think i’m making this all up) and i have seen how profit motive pushes very questionable decisions regarding drug development.

  26. Mep says:

    Getting ready for the WTO in Geneva:


    (Hope nobody minds I got this from HuffPost.)

  27. marietta says:

    Do all climate skeptics receive money from big oil? And if the UN or whom ever is pushig carbon credits as the solution is the hero, then why are they pushing carbon credits? shouldn'[t they be pushing technologies that eliminate carbon use altogether? Wont big oil still make loads of money even with carbon credits?

  28. Youri Carma says:


    SHELL wanted to sink a huge platform full of toxics into the ocean The Brent Spar http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1385&dat=19950617&id=3HAWAAAAIBAJ&sjid=FBUEAAAAIBAJ&pg=6555,680801

    Greenpeace helped preventing that

    In 1995, Grenpeace activists occupied the Brent Spar oil storage facility in the North Sea. Their purpose was to stop plans to scuttle the 14,500 tonne installation. The action was a part of an ongoing campaign to stop ocean dumping, and pitted Greenpeace against the combined forces of the UK government and the world’s then-largest oil company.


    Do you realy think SHELL gives a damn about the environment? SHELL has the idea to make big money of us taxpayers by using old mines for CO2 storage – just to ridiculous to talk about but they actually wonna do it! SHELL scamsters make big money out of this! Be real aand get informed!

    Use your bloody brain: Don’t you find it suspicious that suddenly all the big polluting oil compagnies are behind climate measurments? If not you gotto screw lose.

  29. Bonn says:

    @ Stacey & Max
    What about the Market Cap of “Bailout” ,ROFL
    Wallmart must be scratching their head “Hey why did’nt i Think of that ” “Damn I shoulda bought a Bank”
    “The best way to Rob a bank is to own it “

  30. Youri Carma says:

    SHELL was only interested how they can profit from cap and trade cause we not only have to pay them for our gasoline but also because LOVING SHELL gonna help us to put CO2 INTO the ground!!!!!!!!

    Green light for a limited storage of CO2 (Google trans from Dutch) http://tinyurl.com/ydmmcmx

  31. Mep says:

    @ Marietta – I’ll take your suggestion about producing some research articles. Of course, I don’t know which of their journals are the best, so I’ll have to find out and access them.

    About raw data, I don’t know exactly how intellectual property rights might come into play. When I’ve had to access raw data for research in my field, I have sometimes had to pay $ for the privilege (which gets annoying when you know that taxpayers funded the research in the first place). When writing up my papers, I, of course cited the surveys and data sources, so anyone reading my paper would know where the data came from and would have access to the same data. Publishing the raw data from the entire survey wouldn’t only be silly, but I don’t know that it would be legal if I for some reason tried to disseminate the raw data.

    It’s obvious that the climate scientists in question are limited in their ability to re-publish raw data that they do not own, but I wonder if all scientists are able to access the same data. If so, and if the researchers detailed exactly which variables they included and how they created their models, there shouldn’t be a problem with replication.

  32. Mep says:

    @ Bonn- Wal-Mart has made attempts in the past to get into banking: http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/05_06/b3919046_mz011.htm

  33. Youri Carma says:

    Analysis of ice core data from Antarctica by Indermühle et al. (GRL, vol. 27, p. 735, 2000), who find that CO2 lags behind the temperature by 1200±700 years. http://www.sciencebits.com/IceCoreTruth

  34. marietta says:

    @ youri
    I think I was agreeing with you. Gordo said he believes in GW and doesnt trust big oil or big pharma. I was asking him didn’t he think big oil would profit from carbon credits. And since big government is behind big oil and big vaccines, shouldn’t he distrust govt. in both cases? Same point you just made.

  35. Youri Carma says:

    “An article from Science magazine explains a rise in CO2 concentrations actually lagged temperature by 200 to 1000 years. CO2 levels went up after the temperature rose. Temperature appears to drive CO2, not vice versa.” http://www.skepticalscience.com/co2-lags-temperature.htm

  36. Youri Carma says:

    Fig 2. This graph of actual data from all major temperature peaks of the Antarctic vostok data confirms the pattern we saw in fig 1, and now we have a very clear signal as random noise is reduced.

    The well known Temperature-CO2 relation with temperature as a driver of CO2 is easily shown: PDF


  37. Youri Carma says:


    Yeah gotto cool down……but it makes me so angry that the stupid Dutchies are realy gonna waste money on a big scam putting CO2 into the ground – Too stupid!

    But everwere it shows that CO2 follows earths temp not the other way around and nobody can’t say there isn”t 100% proven.

    nough said……

  38. Youri Carma says:

    Potential For Fed To Hyperinflate http://tinyurl.com/yes3k2o

  39. Youri Carma says:

    US Dollar Will Collapse at end of 2010!!

  40. marietta says:

    You know, if the US/UN really wanted the peeps to conserve energy, they would admit we are at peak oil and demonstrate this by allowing oil rise to it’s actual cost. Instead they hide the real cost by transfering it to public debt schemes that finance Haliburton and military indus. complex. What other proof do you need that carbon credits are a scam?

  41. marietta says:

    I didn’t even know you could be prevented from sharing data at public universities due to intellectual property rights. Just doesn’t happen in the fields I’m familiar with. Goes to show why I cant really judge all the nuances of the climate dabate.

    There was one quote that was fishy for a different reason. one of the emails stated that the raw data was available but the author would not share the formulas or code he used to analyze the data. is this true? WHy would he do that?

  42. Gordo says:

    @ marietta

    I am personally against the Cap and Trade and/or carbon credit schemes that are proposed as solutions to the problem. I view them as just another method for the Wall Street to scam profit out of the real economy. So big oil will avoid doing the right thing and Wall Street will profit at everyones expense (as usual).

  43. marietta says:

    I think we definitely need to go off the carbon but as i said above I think it is because we are at peak oil. So i think we find common ground here. Nothing burns me up more than to see neighbors houses lit up like christmas trees when no one is home.

  44. Youri Carma says:

    Al Gore Sued By Over 30,000 Scientists For Global Warming Fraud

  45. Youri Carma says:

    ‘Cap and Trade Is Dead’ http://tinyurl.com/y922hzb

  46. Youri Carma says:

    Thatcher adviser: Copenhagen goal is 1-world government http://tinyurl.com/y8dae33

  47. Youri Carma says:

    Global Warming is a SCAM, Officially… (Climate-Gate)

  48. Mother Earth says:


    That Thacher advisor mr. Monckton has been completely discredited.

    The comments on climate change and its science here really don’t reach the level that is necessary to warrant any doubt of the present conclusions. If you don’t get peer review and weeding out the bad apples where it comes to the application of good scientific methods, look at these comments, it is a peer review process in action, where the contributors that can provide links that support their claim are stronger. Scientist that can support their claims with measurements (usually several sets) win over peers that are unable to do so.

    I agree that cap and trade does not work if it includes credits for clean projects. If you count a carbon sink as a credit you will emit all the carbon in the sink by selling the credits and get rich in the process. This is a banking trick and the reason why these ‘consultants’ are all over the makets.

    Bankers are still capable of creating bubbles or blisters if they find they have nothing to do. They are foxes in the henhouse and need to be disabled legally.

  49. Mep says:

    It appears that the climate-gatists who belong to the Union of Concerned Scientists and The Ecological Society of America accurately predicted in 1999 that California would face a water crisis:


    (Also, here’s a reminder of the Street’s opposition to Kyoto: http://earthguide.ucsd.edu/globalchange/global_warming/05.html )

  50. Mep says:

    @ Mother Earth – Jerome R. Corsi, the author of that WorldNetDaily piece has been thoroughly discredited, too. He’s one of those creeps who has a habit of taking passages of text out of context and spinning them hard in his favor. His book about Obama was such a piece of trash it’s amazing that anyone still takes him seriously.

  51. Mother Earth says:


    Nice. It is amazing people still accept the MSM to feed them lies every day. I would expect them to shut them up by now. Everywhere you go news is blatandly political and deadly..

  52. warburg sidney says:

    Youri, if I am not wrong, Royal Shell was bought from the Rothschild family and its main stoke-holder is the Dutch Royal Family…
    So we are back again to our Bilderbergers!

  53. Mini US says:

    @Stacy and Max

    What you say the show is absolutely true.

    People in Australia FEEL wealthier. The blue collar workers who’s house price went up and they have a few shares are now called ‘Aspirational Voters’. They vote for more wealth that made them FEEL wealthier, which equals more debt. I assume this is the same in other western cultures.

    This was designed to make them feel like one of ‘them’, not poor at all. Not against government, rather a friend of the government who made them ‘better off’ even though it is all based on debt.
    This is why they will not say a word against government that made them thus, in fact they will defend them to the death. Fools.

    “Politicians are Cheerleaders”

    They ARE massaging the people. The people don’t wanna know the truth, they want to be massaged.

    “Too hard. I’m busy paying my house off, leave me alone”

  54. Mini US says:

    This is also why, in Australia at least, they will do everything they can to keep house prices high and the great ponzi lie to continue as long as there are no elections on the horizon 🙂

    I am talking about stimuli

  55. Mep says:

    @ Mother Earth – The deeply political divides only benefit the criminals. Seems like on most issues, there are those who want to do nothing different and keep the status quo going, and then those who recognize the need for reform. It’s easy for politicians to split the difference in this environment and make symbolic reforms that in the end, benefit the few.

    @ Marietta – I don’t know for sure how intellectual property rights apply to the case of the climate researchers. I do know that there are sometimes barriers to access to data when one tries to get it from another university or institute. If I paid to get access to a dataset, there would be no stopping me from sharing that raw data with someone else I know personally who wanted to work from the dataset. However, I think I could get in trouble for posting that data in raw form online, because it’s not mine to put out there (plus, if I did that, it might mean that some institute doesn’t get to collect a fee).

  56. Mother Earth says:


    Yes, in fact, any division whether internally or externaly weakens us. If we are ignorant enough we may allow others to exploit these conflicts as a means to control us. As long as people believe anger is power they are suceptible. Anger is not power, it is only the temporary promise of it. Truth and understanding is power.

  57. Mep says:

    @ Mother Earth – Hallelujah! Had to sing this for choir once upon a time; we didn’t sound nearly as good as these folks.

  58. TJ says:


    How was Lord Monckton discredited?

    How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?

  59. Mep says:

    @ Dedo – Very beautiful 🙂

  60. Adam C says:

    @Mini US


    Yes, it’s much the same with the climate debate. People FEEL virtuous by way of participating in a mass promotion nevermind the lack of evidence underlying their cause. They’ll turn all authoritarian against anyone who dares deprive them of all of this false FEELGOOD factor.

  61. Love you both guys….. That is my comment!

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