Will their democratic voices be heard?

Stacy Summary:  If there was a vote held in the US on what to do about health care situation, the public health option would, according to polls, win by a landslide.  And, yet, single payer advocates weren’t even allowed into the hallowed halls of democracy by Senator Baucus, who has received more funds from health and insurance corporations than any other member of the Senate.

Americans overwhelmingly support substantial changes to the health care system and are strongly behind one of the most contentious proposals Congress is considering, a government-run insurance plan to compete with private insurers, according to the latest New York Times/CBS News poll.

The poll found that most Americans would be willing to pay higher taxes so everyone could have health insurance and that they said the government could do a better job of holding down health-care costs than the private sector.

Stacy:  Note the word “contentious” – it is apparently only contentious for the lobbyists and their congresspeople they apparently own.

Support for public health insurance: 72% in favor, 20% opposed, 7% no opinion

Among Republicans: 50% favor, 39% oppose, 11% no opinion

Among Democrats: 87% in favor, 9% oppose, 4% no opinion

Willingness to pay higher taxes so all can have health care: 57% willing, 37% not willing, 6% no opinion

Among those making less than $50,000: 64% willing, 27% not willing, 8% no opinion

Among those making more than $50,000: 52% willing, 44% not willing, 4% no opinion

86 comments on “Will their democratic voices be heard?
  1. Mother Earth says:

    Good to point that out, it came by on the huffington post. Why I always wonder, does the media say ‘might’, ‘could’,’ may’ etc. when the damn well know it is will, will and will. Such weak sauce it pisses me off..

    There should be a blacklist for politicians with simple criteria: Conflict of interest between campaign moany recieved and postions advocated? On the list! Former employee or lobbyist? On the list!

  2. M says:

    @Stacy, any status on the Pirate Myfilm dot com?

  3. frances snoot says:

    Do you support this healh care agenda being toutled about? If so, how, forever how, are we Americans to PAY for it?

    IMHO: the government will muck it up totally, skim at least 20% for personal gain, jack the price many times the quality, and deny care to unsavories. Why else the date collection at the local doctor’s office in the Stimulus?

    A majority of Americans believing in something does not necessarily make it a good thing, on the contrary…and I am skeptical of polls anyway.

    Can’t you see the news headlines: Rahm decides to deny medical care to those on terrorism watch lists. If Rahm thinks it okay to take away gun rights from people placed on an arbitrary list, then why not the right to medical?

  4. Mother Earth says:

    @snoot The ‘how do we pay for it’ argument is such a demonstration of a deeply antisocial attitude. Its not that you need to do more for less (you probably do), but just bring into focus the real culprits in the whole scheme: the banks, pharmaceutical industry and insurance companies. Don’t pretend they are untouchable, or their interests are sacret. And don’t accept that a bought politician is making your laws.

  5. frances snoot says:


    I am NOT for denying anyone medical treatment! I don’t have medical insurance right now, so I’m not a snob, just a snoot.

    I don’t consider it antisocial to wonder who is going to fund a government social experiment when Obama announced he had no money for expense ongoing last month:

    Obama tells Americans that if we trust him and take on another trillion in liabilities to the deficit, somehow the deficit will decrease. Obama is planning on drastically cutting medicare once the ‘new plan’ is in place. Americans have paid into a ponzi Social Security scheme as well which is not funded, the money was stolen for wars.

    No one is denied medical here. Medicare so far has met the needs. (I agree private insurers are horrid about denying claims, but this could be addressed without tearing down the old system) The only way the government can ‘fund’ medical for all people here in America is to drastically cut care to the elderly and the poor. This is behind the plan. Look into it.

    Obama’s plan gives big pharma Everything: forced mandatory innoculations are already being ballied about for HINI. Data will be the domain of the government, private patient information.

    Money is the consideration behind the push for universal government medical. The unfunded entitlement obligations of the US government are about to be terminated. Why don’t we stop the endless wars instead?

  6. pg says:

    lets put it this way, the goverment cant even run the post office and make it pay for itself. how the hell are they going to do this? borrow more money? raising taxes is not an option in mho. everything they touch, they fuck up! no one i know wants anything to do with this proposal. it will be the cheapest health care they can get, and we will be told if we qualify…, government making life and death decisions? holy shit!! who thought of this!!!!! pg

  7. There is no “need” for federally controlled health insurance in America.

    Co-ops and state-option-in health insurances in much smaller systems could do the job equally effectively.

    The problem with a federal run program is that if it is mis-run, badly managed, full of loop-holes or just plain top heavy, if you have a problem with your insurance or whatever, you can’t just march into your local office and complain about it. These are federal agencies who have a tendenciy to be deaf to local concerns.

    Not ot mention the fact that they are VERY succeptable to looby money and political favoritism…


    The better way for the US IS public option insurance, which indeed will compete with private insurance companies. And Americans should be able, through their credit unions or glee clubs or churches or whatever, to establish easily “non-profit” health insurance funds, where members are responsible for the funds and what the administrators of the funds actually do with the money.

    The “state” of the United States is too big, too far removed from local communities, and too ready to fuck up almost all it gets its hands on…

    As for single payer?


    Talk about removing the market out of the innovation wheel of life…

    Countries with single payer have all piggy-backed on the knowledge derived from market impulses to develope new equipment and technologies, which were predominantly market driven…

  8. Correction–

    “The better way for the US IS public option insurance, AT THE STATE LEVEL which indeed will compete with private insurance companies. “

  9. Brandon says:

    We do need a public option. Western nations even in Europe will face a huge issue with costs with the aging populations. Health Care has been the only sector to gain jobs during the recession.

  10. Anna says:

    I don’t think I believe those polls. Everyone I’ve personally talked to is dead set against Universal health care. What good are polls? Germany’s health care system is going bankrupt, Canada isn’t much better (see Dr. David Gratzer on Canadian health care), France admits that their system is cracking . . . no thanks. I once took up a collection here in the States for a Canadian friend who was dying of lead poisoning. Canada wouldn’t cover her treatment. WTF? She was dying! Again, NO THANKS.

  11. Brandon says:

    New unemployment by states
    Illinois my homestate 10.1%, Florida 10.2%, Indiana 10.6%, Kentucky 10.6%, DC 10.7%, Tennessee 10.7%, Ohio 10.8%, North Carolina 11.1%, Nevada 11.3%, California 11.5%, Rhode Island 12.1%, South Carolina 12.1%, Oregon 12.4% and Michigan 14.1%. Louisiana is at 6.6% however much remains even 4 years after Katrina. Mississippi is at 9.6% their coast was nearly wiped by Katrina in 2005.

  12. stacyherbert says:

    The US spends TWICE as much today as the next (Switzerland) in terms of health care. How on earth you think it is more expensive to operate a national system is beyond me? Study after study and report after report shows this. The health care results are also dramatically worse in the US. Just google all the research done most recently by Harvard Medical school.

    Why also you would think that a banker (ie an insurance giant like AIG) is less likely to deny you treatment is also beyond my understanding. It certainly wasn’t my experience in the states.

    Furthermore, in my experience in both Western Europe and the States, people are more entrepreneurial and free here in Europe because they are not trapped into the health care plan of their master/boss/employer.

    And, finally, there is no evidence that US has more innovation in health care?? Much will be coming from the French and Swiss pharmaceutical giants, the Germans will be good at loads of experimental treatments and loads and loads of stuff coming out of Asia.

  13. frances snoot says:

    We in America have had a wee bit of trouble trusting our government of late. Why didn’t the 12 Trillion in banker bailouts go to poor uninsured Americans for health care? It seems a little hypocritical of Team Obama to dole out taxpayer money against the wishes of the majority of Americans to criminals and then claim the way to save money is to have the taxpayers trust Team Obama with another trillion. That is the question, don’t you think so, Stacey?

  14. Stacy,
    Europe has SYSTEMS. Run by smaller COUNTRIES.

    Imagine if Europe went to a single payer EU system?

    US innovation in health care started shutting down as government got involved. Prices soared as government got involved. The US has a bastard system caught between two ideologies which is why it is so expensive. If I go to my doc, her office has three compliance paperwork pushers and one nurse…

    NO. States can run opt-in systems. Fine. Citizens can organize and run co-opt systems. That’s great. The whole idea of empowering the feds even more with centralized medical is just more weaving of the fraud and corruption we all loathe…

    And no, the US system is not statistically “worse” than other countries. What is worse are the exercise and eating habits of Americans which skew the results greatly.

  15. George McGriff says:

    Interesting that a telephone poll of 895 people is being accepted as some sort of mandate from the entire country. There’s no way such a poll could be manipulated to suit an agenda, right?

    ‘Mr. Obama and many Democrats have argued that a public plan would be essential, in the president’s words, to “keep insurance companies honest.” ‘

    Yes, keep them honest indeed. Their proposed policies in the financial sector will certainly work wonders to keep the banks honest.

    The folks in DC have proven to be incompetent at nearly every venture they have undertaken. How in the world is this going to be any different?

  16. pg says:

    stacy, weve got NO MONEY, we cannot keep going deeper in debt. no sane person would live so far beyond their means. so many people are being laid off, loosing jobs, theres a lot less people to pay for this. its not a matter of need, its a matter of we cant afford it. look at SS and MC. theyre broke, the money is gone. they couldnt make those work, you think theyll do better with this? lol,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,we will just have to wait till there is money to pay for it. also, the people who work for the government , i am sure, will have better plans, which is certainly not far. I ONLY WANT TO PAY FOR MY OWN HEALTH CARE, i dont want to pay for everyone elses. if its government run, i stay as far away from them as possible. pg

  17. Mike/Liverpool says:

    Here come the price controls!!!

    Schiff said they try this!

  18. Gerry says:

    I feel a Mike Moore moment coming on.

  19. pg says:

    i run my own small businees, i already have a plan. now they want to tax me on my own insurance and then tax me again to pay for someone elses plan, fuck that!!! pg

  20. frances snoot says:

    Is the argument that America IS bankrupt, that there is no way that the government can pay the existing deficit, must less future entitlements, and that the government must now place an umbrella over the health care system before the shtf? If so, I would prefer not to use the government’s umbrella. It is held by a politician.

  21. Mother Earth says:

    @snoot You don’t have to go with the options proposed. Why not simply pay less for medical care? This inmovable cost you suggest needs to be payed one way or another is not immovable at all. Go after the margins top down, and when people get in trouble with banks go after the banks. Imho you don’t improve things until everyone starts to feel he/she is in the firing line. At the same time if you want to fight inflation, make every buck go a little bit further (eg get off your ass)..

  22. Dedo says:

    If I was an employee of a company,…and found out the emloyers were liquidating the company,…..I’d have bin gone long ago!! health care or not.

  23. pg says:

    snoot, i would rather stand in the rain, than under their umbrella. a normal person would pay off their debts, rather than go on a spending splurge and sink deeper. besides, who taught these people the math: spend more to pay off your debts? WTF? they all need to be fired!! we dont need anymore on our plate. pg

  24. B says:

    I would like to say keeping in with your spirit of Pirate Myfilm dot com
    that Iv tried Ubuntu on Linux and you all should if you not yet installed it on your computer.

    Its great, it works much better than windows.


    and most of the software is free and as good or better than many purchased packages. Some magazines (Linux) have a DVD that comes with Ubuntu, very easy to do.

    I know many will be using in already but if not give it a try you wont regret it.

  25. sharon says:

    “Among those making less than $50,000: 64% willing, 27% not willing, 8% no opinion

    Among those making more than $50,000: 52% willing, 44% not willing, 4% no opinion”

    Notice how the richer they are the less they want to give back?

  26. frances snoot says:


    GEAB agrees with you:

    I spend time on my ass typing!
    The only way to Do something is to keep the government from hindering us further.

  27. B says:

    If the oil price keeps going then the Gold price follows fueled by the oil profits. Here one, what is the difference between inflation and a hedge against inflation when the effects are the same, the effect being to push up prices. Its just the way they report them!!

  28. frances snoot says:

    (better link, pg, or google GEAB)

  29. frances snoot says:


    Maybe I should get off my ass and get a degree in Nutrional Counceling? Or Nutrional Psychology? :http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0609/23559.html#ixzz0I2hzQ9Tl&C

    darn that English major

  30. frances snoot says:

    “If you care about the sorts of things I do, then you are going to be losing big-time for the next four to eight years,” said David Harsanyi, a Denver Post columnist and author of the book “Nanny State: How Food Fascists, Teetotaling Do-Gooders, Priggish Moralists and Other Boneheaded Bureaucrats Are Turning America Into a Nation of Children.”

    Don’t get them wrong, critics such as Harsanyi say — they like broccoli and they lift barbells and they have no particular beef with a healthy president who was once described by his physician as having “no excess body fat.” They just don’t like it when government becomes the messenger and the enforcer.”

    So, 650 million of the stimulus for the fatties of America to get slim. Wonder if we taxpayers will be paying to lift barbells with Oprah while being told this is about patriotism? (politico article linked earlier describes new Nanny state Obama ideal)

    Forget your grandmother’s hip replacement! This is about US now!

    (Wonder if Mr. Obama is still smoking?)

  31. max keiser says:

    With the insurance and banking industries welded into the Federal government one should readily appreciate that ‘health care’ in America is, at the moment, run by the gov’t-banking axis to a large degree – for their benefit and our detriment.

    This is the worst of both worlds. If health care were run by private enterprise, without the gov’t/banking cartel subsidies – the level of service would improve via competition. If health care were controlled by the gov’t, services would also be cheaper and of higher quality than they are today. Remember, it was the Federal gov’t that won WWII, put a man on the moon, crated the internet, and invented The Constitution and the Bill of Rights.

    Instead we have a system that is ostensibly run by private enterprise but is actually run by corrupt gov’t/banking fraudsters – and the result is high cost and lousy service – accompanied by incesant 24/7 PR campaigns trying to convince us otherwise.

    Either choice, private or gov’t, would be an improvement. Either the health care system is controlled by private enterprise or gov’t sponsored, but to have a system that is neither; that exists as an extension of the overall corrupt gov’t/banking gulag runners is beyond inept. It’s an egregious violation of human rights and no true American in their right mind would put up with this for five minutes. Hence the need for the faux debate, lax attitudes toward guns and opiates, and the need to crate existential threats from afar to distract and frighten.

  32. Vainamoinen says:

    The main problem I have with socialized health care is that there is less freedom to choose what type of health care you want. I live in Canada so through my taxes if some fat alcoholic needs a liver transplant I have to pay for it. I myself read about nutrition and try to live my life as healthy as possible. One problem is healthy food is more expensive and its hard for me to afford the best. So my taxes go to helping the fat alcoholic slobs of the world and forcing me to pay for the equivalent of health insurance for myself while I would rather strive for health through nutritional means.

    Maybe I am just a paranoid conspiracy theorist but i also don’t trust orthodox medicine which by socializing health care the government would be subsidizing. Drug companies give donations to schools. These donations help them lower tuition and raise quality of education. If a school doesn’t get these donations they need higher tuition and less quality, so they will be much less respected and not be able to compete. This left the drug companies in charge of which schools succeeded and which schools failed. Therefore socialized health care is a subsidy for the drug companies idea of what health care should be, treatment only through drugs whenever possible and completely ignoring nutrition.

  33. stacyherbert says:

    @Vainamoinen – I had a friend who was a doctor in the emergency room in UK; she spoke often of the number of ‘healthy’ 30 or 40 year olds who would come in with heart attack or some other congenital problem that they were unaware of; healthy people also get in car accidents and healthy women have pregnancy complications, etc

    @maxkeiser – good points; of course, plastic surgery costs come down and down and down due to competition so you don’t have the monopolies of either govt or insurance companies interfering

  34. Gerry says:

    For me the bottom line is that health ought not to be treated as just another business. We have a right to health care in any just society, and it has a duty to provide it. Government is supposed to see to it that standards are met and the vulnerable are not exploited. If we’re really a nation, this is where it starts. I don’t accept that there is this mythical ‘free’ market under which prices are set according to ‘competition’ and that it is only right that the strong and most fortunate survive. This is a recipe for fascism. And it’s a lie. It’s a lie big players, like medical and pharmaceutical corporations, use to exclude bigger corporations or competitors, like nations or governments, and ensure that they only need deal with smaller fry, the little people; their ‘market’. They’re all for ‘free’ competition; so long as they dictate the terms. That’s not ‘free’ actually, and it’s not competition.

    When their cartels are threatened they cry “undemocratic!” or ‘socialist!” but what they really mean is they don’t want to do business on equal terms. That’s a little too democratic. They’re not trading where someone else might have an advantage. And so long as they can buy governments and pervert medical practice they don’t have to do business with actual rivals, merely go through the motions. And their motions are as often as not the media – just look at the hysteria recently about swine flu and the enormous amounts of inoculations that were sold in anticipation of a pandemic. Certain pharmaceutical companies made A LOT of money just from being close to governments and media.

    That’s their idea of democracy – everyone shares the risk, they make the profit. I don’t think that’s healthy.

  35. pg says:

    wasnt schooling supposed to be subsudized by the lotto in the us? i wonder how much money ever made it there? or am i wrong? pg

  36. Mother Earth says:

    Its obvious many US citizen are rediculously fat, which imho should be dealt with from the supply and demand side, so Snoot, Have at it!

    Like Max implies, the health care insurers are your government now and as long as you continue to be hooked on nihilistic twittergasms or other inconsequential stuff you’ll be at their non existent mercy..

  37. white hunter says:

    Whey would this government, at this time, have any more credibility on health care than it does on bail outs, wars, torture or anything else.

  38. frances snoot says:

    “I don’t accept that there is this mythical ‘free’ market under which prices are set according to ‘competition’ and that it is only right that the strong and most fortunate survive. This is a recipe for fascism. And it’s a lie.”

    Facism is, by definition, the coordination of government and free market players at the expense of the plebeians. This is what Mr. Keiser refers to as the existing system in the US, and he is quite right to point this out. IMHO the government is not a mythical utopian instrument to incise the bad out of society and promote the good. The Obama Health plan seems set along these lines based on the faulty premise that, as Obama put it, “It’s not how big government is, it’s does it work?”

    If the government is trustworthy, then one would without hesitation support a system to give equal care to all citizens. The government in the US is not trustworthy, therefore I go with Mr. Keiser’s second option: keep health care entirely private. As Max writes: If health care were run by private enterprise, without the gov’t/banking cartel subsidies – the level of service would improve via competition. (I don’t support eliminating medicare though)

    But, of course, Team Obama doesn’t give diddly to what we taxpayers think.

  39. max keiser says:

    “I don’t accept that there is this mythical ‘free’ market under which prices are set according to ‘competition’ and that it is only right that the strong and most fortunate survive. This is a recipe for fascism. And it’s a lie.”

    …free markets, the idea that ‘price discovery’ is the result of competition and not gov’t controls can work very well…. in nature we see the free market principle in action working invisibly (as in the invisible hand) where ever see photosynthesis; the exchange of carbon for oxygen in a virtually frictionless economy that result sin a a ‘win-win’ situation for animals and humans that are both competing and cooperating for resources.

    …but the goal in the US economic policy makes is to control prices. The intro. of the Fed. in 1913 is anti-free market and the results have been disastrous for humans, animals, and the environment.

  40. Phil says:

    @Stock & Bond market next week … Something is not right!


    I would agree .. though predicting this happens “next” week, is often a case of us NOT getting what we expect.
    Good listen all the same !

    BTW.. someone here talked about “free markets”.
    LOL .. you must be joking !

  41. frances snoot says:

    “Remember, it was the Federal gov’t that won WWII, put a man on the moon, crated the internet, and invented The Constitution and the Bill of Rights.”

    What history books has Max been reading? The Federal gov’t via foreign financial influence, right?

    This sounds like Obama’s speech where “the Muslims’ invented algebra”.

  42. Phil says:

    @free markets …

    Forgot to add …
    Yes, having “free capital markets” would have ensured this fiasco never happened. As long as the US Govt. ( FED, Treasury = big WS banks) continues to interfere , we do NOT have free markets .
    Obviously !

  43. Phil says:

    Fear the Dark Side of China’s Lending Surge
    06-19 14:24 Caijing comments( 0 )

    Banks loans designed to spark economic recovery have been channeled into asset speculation, doing more harm than good.

    … “(Caijing.com.cn) China’s credit boom has increased bank lending by more than 6 trillion yuan since December. Many analysts think an economic boom will follow in the second half 2009. They will be disappointed. Much of this lending has not been used to support tangible projects but, instead, has been channeled into asset markets.

    Many boom forecasters think asset market speculation will lead to spending growth through the wealth effect. But creating a bubble to support an economy brings, at best, a few short-term benefits along with a lot of long-term pain. Moreover, some of this speculation is actually hurting China’s economy by driving asset prices higher.”…



  44. Phil says:

    Robert Kahre: When is a Federal Reserve Note a U.S. dollar ? :
    NEVER !

    … “Robert Kahre, who owns numerous construction businesses in Las Vegas, is standing trial on 57 counts of income tax evasion, tax fraud and criminal conspiracy. If convicted on most counts, he could live out his life in prison.

    But attorney William Cohan paints Kahre as an American “hero” who believes his payroll system helped keep the U.S. monetary system sound, and was also a form of legal tax avoidance.”….

    Just some more … Fuel for the fire !

  45. Don says:

    I would be willing to pay higher taxes for ‘good” medicine but certainly nothing else.

  46. Puts toy down, grabs keyboard, turns it upside down and thwacks it…


    Ron Paul’s view on Healthcare in the US…http://www.dailypaul.com/node/96828

  47. klaos says:

    I would like the right to see a doctor without the Federal Gubment knowing why or what we talked about.

  48. sg says:

    I have no idea where that poll was taken, because not one person I have talked to, and I work retail and it comes up very often, wants or trust this government to provide adequate health care, or are not willing to pay higher taxes. In fact, just the opposite is occuring…they are complaing about the taxes they already pay.

    Myself, I have lost all faith in this current government. I certainly DO NOT WANT them choosing who I can see, and how I will be treated. Lord have mercy on all Americans !!

    I cannot say enough of how angry I am becoming at the elected officials in this city, state, and country !! They have lost their minds, and have gotten so damn greedy, that they are an elite club, and we are the playing prices of amusement for them.

    Time to wake the folks up in this country, and start speajking out !!

    My sister told me after I had sent her many articles about different economic situations that are and will be affecting us, her repsonse was she was too busy to read the articles…..this is why this government is getting away with so much! It’s people like her…..hide your head int he sand, it’s easier to let others worry about the problems. She al;so said give the new administration more time to see if his policies work?????? If we wait…we will be in lock down in a detention camp!!

    WAKE UP AMERICA !! Let’s so something to save this country…lets take it back !!!

  49. Puts down hash pipe, tries to sort through mind to find a sentence of cohesiveness…


    In you case read haven’t this yet…


  50. Phil says:

    @sg .. “her repsonse was she was too busy to read the articles”

    …. sounds like my sister as well , she’s a finance director … which is why she bought UK savings bonds rather than Gold ! LOL.

    There “is” a relationship between those that “have time to think” and those that are still busy working on the treadmill of debt. If you have the time to think, you are normally either very rich or very poor IMO.

  51. sharon says:

    Off topic but interesting imho. Re: the meeting between the Bric countries, etc. did you know that US officials wanted to attend Yekaterinburg as observers and that they were told NO.
    According to one article the word ‘NO’ is a word that Americans will hear much more in the future.

  52. Mother Earth says:

    @klaos From my involvement and observation of progress in digitized and shared medical records in Holland, it ain’t going to happen soon, and we don’t even have the liability laws like the US. Holland has been at it for about 15 years now, and they are nowhere..

  53. frances snoot says:

    Team Obama will decide what medicine is good for you. Now, swallow it down and pay your taxes. Don’t want to be classified an extremist, do you?

  54. david says:

    Hey where’e Saturday’s Truth about Markets? Tsk tsk tsk.

  55. juergenwahl says:

    I am continually surprised by the average citizen abdicating all input and responsibility for political issues directly impacting his or her life. As a society, we have become, in aggregate, fat, lazy, stupid, and irresponsible.

    Health care is such a vital issue that you’d think the general populace would want to ensure that their venal Solons would pass legislation which would provide the best health care for all at affordable rates. The way things appear to be going in the US is for adoption of a single payer system with service rationing. This means that if you are too old, too unworthy, or not a member of a politically favourable group you will simply not get the care you need to maintain a vibrant, healthy lifestyle.

    The first thing that should be done to promote informed, public debate on this critical issue is to derive a statistical snapshot of the present health care structure. Who is covered – who is not? What is the status of demand for services versus services supplied? What would a fair and equitable system look like as compared to what we have now (and where we are going under the present regime)? How can we rationalise the cost of what we can afford with that we desire?

    With all of its warts and supparations, the present health care delivery system is positively regarded by 70% of Americans. Of the 40+ millions not having some health insurance coverage (everybody in this country has access to the health care system), half of those are job-changers who will likely become reinsured within 6 months, and one-fourth are illegal immigrants, leaving around 10+ million poor people (around 3% of the US population) who cannot afford any coverage, whatsoever.

    Forcing 97% of the populace into a single-payer, rationing system without adequate understanding and debate for the sake of adding 3% to insurance rolls is simply an additional power grab by an already power-hungry government.

    Visualise, if you will, a supply-demand graph of the health care system, wherein the y axis represents costs and the x axis represents quantity. Using presently supplied government data, the descending demand curve intersects with the rising supply curve at an equilibrium point where 40+ million people are not covered by health insurance. Shifting the demand curve to the right to accommodate all the uninsured would intersect the supply curve at a sharply higher level, reflecting much higher costs for the increased coverege. However, if we were to also shift the supply curve to the right, we could accommodate all uninsured with no substantial change of aggregate costs within the larger system. Supply could be increased by licencing masters-level nurses as stand-alone practitioners (chest and thoracic surgery requirements, etc., would be referred to MD/DOs), graduating 4 year students (BM) who could provide limited, moderately supervised medical treatments, making better use of mid-wives, etc.

    Obamacare, as presently described and supposed (the administration refuses to issue any concrete proposals, as of yet) looks as though it will mirror the worst aspects of the British system. Google “British healthcare problems” to see what potentially lies lurking in the shadows if such a pathway is chosen. Also, should you see the name – Ira Magaziner – appearing in any health-care pronouncements, grab your pitchforks and torches and join us other rabble in our march against the health care Frankenstein promoters in that vast sewer of immorality, Washington DC.

  56. frances snoot says:


    Poorly done ‘editorial’ by an understaffed paper which timidly asks the question “Should illegal immigrant care be included in the Obama Health Plan?” A round-a-bout way to garner opinion.

    The mild assertion is that we don’t have a health care problem in the US: we have an immigration problem. Speaking about illegal immigrant cost in the US is a sure way to have the racist epithet thrown at a person. It is interesting that the hospital in Guatamala also threw the poor man out due to an inability to pay!

  57. Dedo says:

    Does anyone have the stats for diseases and mental disorders for the past fifty yrs?
    oh,..and the stats for pharm co’ profits during the same period.
    (I’m a lazy fker!)

  58. frances snoot says:

    Thank-you, Mr. Juergenwahl: This one’s for you.

  59. Wow! Gets all excited. Jumps up and down! Picks up keyboard and types–

    Hey! Yahoo News has an article NEAR AND DEAR to my heart on their front page!! Woohoohoo!!


    I used to play scrabble with some Earth! Firsters. Hearing about the shenanigans of the feds back when they were active made me switch my mindset to LOCAL CONTROL over local issues, like forests and libraries…

  60. david says:

    @*.* that’s all well and good but where the fucks Saturday’s Truth about Markets yis lazy bleeders.

  61. B says:

    Hay there is lots a green shoots, in the garden, most of the weeds.

  62. B says:

    Hay there is lots a green shoots, in the garden, most of them weeds.

  63. juergenwahl says:

    @frances snoot

    Thanks for the interesting article.

    Let me provide you another from Simon Johnson’s excellent blog, this one concerning the “McAllen Problem.”



  64. Brandon says:

    Many Democrats fear Obama’s health plan won’t pass the senate. The GOP and Conservative Democrats might have the votes to kill it. This would be a huge defeat for the President. Walter Cronkite is gravely ill at age 92. President Johnson in 1968 said when Cronkite said there was no military outcome possible ”If I’ve lost Walter I’ve lost the country”. He letter in 1968 ended his bid for a second full term. That is how respected Walter was.

  65. sg says:

    maybe someone can explain this to me….

    IF….Obama wants to tax us to death for this health insurance plan, like cigarettes, alcohol, cap and trade, business’ taxed on their own insurance they provide, etc…BUT

    the unemployment rate is still rising, people cannot afford to buy cigarettes, and alcohol, nor buy much food, pay for vacations, afford gas…etc.

    then how is the tax they figured on, from all these things, going to supply this enormous debt ???? WE HAVE NO MONEY !!!!

    We cannot sustain this any longer. How can they do this???

    It makes no sense to me…


    IMHO..I think it’s the insurance companies that need reeling in! I think if they stopped dictating to the doctors, and Americans questioned many things the doctors told them, we would be better off.

    I do NOT have answers, and I am not a real political person, but I am mad as hell, and am tired of what this government is doing to my family and me !!!

  66. T says:

    The truth is the Power Elite (Congress, the Wall Street firms and others) just don’t care. In their view, everything they’ve done is perfectly ok because “that’s capitalism.” Predatory lending, fraud and other things that the public would do serious jail time for is “bad judgement” to them. And in the words of CNBC, that’s not a crime.

    Obama is not the Great Liberal Saviour that will solve all of our problems. Instead, he’s a centrist (and a person of color) that knows he can only go so far so as to not piss off the mostly white Power Elite. How many assassanation attempts have been made against him? And he’s only been in office for what, roughly six months?

    If you read between the lines in his speeches, the message is this: you the public are nuts if you think that I’ll go for single-payer health care. If he and others are so concerned about this, why doesn’t Congress drop their universal health care as a sign of solidarity with the public? Kucinich was the ONLY one who was willing to do that. Which means that the others (and maybe Obama?) would laugh in your face. And then drive away in their gas guzzling SUV’s.

    Since this is a national emergency, why can’t he sign an Executive Order implementing single payer? If he did, people would scream dictator and other nasty racist crap. There’s lots of nice talk that makes for nice soundbites. But the reality is Obama and all the rest of them will fight like hell against single payer. The Democratic “consultants” are saying, if you pass this you piss off these firms who are our biggest campaign donors. Then we lose the freaking White House in 2012 to that nutjob in Alaska. And damnit, we just can’t have that.

    But then again, you already knew that.

  67. BW says:

    America is a ride the best ride in the world, We build mega corporations and we also bring them to their knees and then we build a new ride.
    This will cheer you up:

  68. Leroy Transfield says:

    Health care in the US is a fraud. People think the only way to live is by modern medicine which doesn’t like competition. Now the whole system will be funded by the government. If this health bill passes the government will control 60% to 70% of the economy, what is next? America is more communist than communist Russia at the height of the cold war.

  69. Tim Gandee says:

    if one believes these polls of propaganda then I have a McMansion to sell to you.

  70. unchie kun says:

    Semper in angaria

  71. Youri Carma says:

    Public health care insurance would work if the government wouldn’t be that corrupt. U.S.A. is beginning to look like China with 80% of the Chinese people without healthcare, no freedom of speech, no free internet, half baken crony capitalism etc…

    China and former Nazi Germany seems to be the models on which to guide politics.

  72. DharmaBum says:

    In 1919 Seattle went on a general strike. The IWW had the wherewithal to not only coordinate the disobedience, but also set up soup kitchens, etc. An army general said it was the most peaceful he’d ever seen a city. The effort, of course, crumbled underneath federal pressure, however, the precedent had been set. Such a movement at the national level–indeed, the global level–is our only hope of averting extreme versions of neofeudalism. Use credit unions, use local currencies, use our innate human capacity for creativity and let’s work towards such goals.

    As far as Truth About Markets is concerned: I agree with Max that all the world’s woes cannot be attributed solely to the superclass; nonetheless, I can’t help but acknowledge this superclass is an outgrowth of a 6,000 year civilization defined by a pyramid of wealth in which the wealthiest of echelons holds all the cards. The power accumulated by the highest corporate players certainly has retarded their behavior and made them, indeed, a bunch of shits. Sure, 90% of the commons i come across are idiots, but who can blame them, for they have been psychologically tortured their entire existences. Not to mention drinkin’ flouride and eating McDonald’s. (read: soft poison)

  73. M says:


    Tax his land,
    Tax his bed,
    Tax the table
    At which he’s fed.

    Tax his tractor,
    Tax his mule,
    Teach him taxes
    Are the rule.

    Tax his work,
    Tax his pay,
    He works for peanuts Anyway!

    Tax his cow,
    Tax his goat,
    Tax his pants,
    Tax his coat.

    Tax his ties,
    Tax his shirt,
    Tax his work,
    Tax his dirt.

    Tax his tobacco,
    Tax his drink,
    Tax him if he
    Tries to think.

    Tax his cigars,
    Tax his beers,
    If he cries
    Tax his tears.

    Tax his car,
    Tax his gas,
    Find other ways
    To tax his ass.

    Tax all he has
    Then let him know
    That you won’t be done
    Till he has no dough.

    When he screams and hollers,
    Then tax him some more,
    Tax him till
    He’s good and sore.

    Then tax his coffin,
    Tax his grave,
    Tax the sod in
    Which he’s laid.

    Put these words
    Upon his tomb,
    ‘Taxes drove me to my doom…’

    When he’s gone,
    Do not relax,
    Its time to apply
    The inheritance tax.

  74. Mother Earth says:

    How can gold continue to go down?

  75. Brad says:

    Government healthcare in America will never work. Too many leaches. Solution is to make health insurance illegal. No insurance company fees would save a fortune as well as force the medical cost to price procedure to what the market would/could pay. No government involvement

  76. M says:


    IMF gold-sale has been confirmed today.

  77. Phil says:

    @ME … “How can gold continue to go down?”

    Hey .. look on the bright side, you can get it cheaper soon.
    The IMF 400 tons is a drop in the ocean.
    OTOH expect JPM to short Gold … IMO.

    Any bets that we’ll see a News report in a few weeks that says that the Chinese have again increased their Gold reserves ?

  78. Joe says:

    It’s not about what the people want.

    As has been pointed out by others, this “healthcare reform” is nothing more than TARP 2. Who gets the money? Insurance companies. Most of the largest insurance companies are insolvent due to their stock market investments. Obama’s plan still leaves tens of millions uncovered.

  79. Matt says:

    “As has been pointed out by others, this “healthcare reform” is nothing more than TARP 2. Who gets the money? Insurance companies.”
    -yes, that seems to be the case. And why oh why do we constantly live in a fantasyland where our tax money funds all things? Is this truly the case? As Max recently pointed out in a Truth about Markets, the constant talk in the US about “taxpayers’ money” paying for this and that, is a ridiculous notion. When we’re talking so many unknown trillions of debt that taxes could never pay back, we ARE talking about paying the interest on the debt with tax money, as has been the case since the inception of the federal reserve. But anytime we’re talking about more debt, from banks fiat creation of money, like gov’t provided healthcare being financed by the private banks that run the country, we’re not talking about our tax money funding anything. Don’t we need to keep this same concept in mind that Max has said we should keep in mind with tax money funding the bailouts? It’s a ridiculous notion that we’re supposed to accept. I reject the notion that our taxes now will be really funding anything except interest. Maybe when gov’t people do their budgets, they incorporate tax revenues, but this isn’t really funding anything on a federal level, is it?
    I think that everyone including Max Keiser who spouts so many truths about markets, yet also spout this notion that it’s responsible to pay more taxes in this age of complete piracy/corruption/ corporate dictatorship is still fooling themselves into their own slavery

  80. Dedo says:

    Well said Matt,………!!

  81. frances snoot says:

    Here’s an article to answer the question “How can gold continue to go down” by Stewart Thompson, “Gold Battle: Thrilla in Manilla.” He speculates gold could go down to 680 an ounce.

  82. Mep says:

    I am extremely disappointed to read the words of my fellow Americans here who obviously have not bothered to educate themselves on the issue of health care, and instead, rehash GOP/Conservadem/BigPharma/BigInsurance/AMA propaganda talking points.

    Educate yourselves, God damn it! Some of us are working our asses off to push for REAL REFORM while a sizable segment of the population can’t even be bothered to do their effing homework!

    I won’t apologize for being a bitch on this issue. I get that the sociopolitical environment is ripe for conspiracy theories and paranoid, but NO adult American has an excuse to remain willfully ignorant on health care. It’s bad enough that those of us on the left have to fight the idiots on the left who are engaging in an intellectually dishonest discussion about reform by IGNORING single payer. But it’s infuriating to fight those fools with the knowledge that even as we stand up for ALL citizens, fellow Americans are too fucking lazy to do their homework and PAY ATTENTION.

  83. frances snoot says:


    This is only a forum for dialogue, not concerted action. The objections that angered you on this topic have their basis in real time: the objections are based on real dilemnas experienced by your fellow Americans. If you would take the time to explain your perspective clearly, it might be advantageous for the advancement of your cause. Blasting words about how “ignorance” is synonomous with a disagreement to your agenda is counterproduct.

    If the US goes into sovereign default this year, then the arguments about health care would appear to be moot. One can’t build an ideal society when the books are tottering over from debt.

Watch the latest Keiser Reports:

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